old school dykes, where are you?

[sageandsea]

A disclaimer: This is my own opinion. Please not to get your panties in a wad if your opinion differs.

So I got some news today. A person I used to know, a lesbian, has now got a boyfriend. Another person I used to know, a lesbian, is now a boy (transitioning).

What the hell is wrong with being a dyke? I understand drag kings...hell, the lesbian referenced above who is dating the boy now, IS a drag king, or was. But what is wrong with just being a butch girl who does boy drag? Are you sure you really want unregulated levels of testosterone running around in your system to fuck it up who knows how? I mean, I totally understand homoflexibility - there are boys I would fuck, given the opportunity and no damage. I really get genderfuck, and applaud those who practice it (I'm way too much of a girly girl to get away with it). But why not keep genderfucking, instead of making a lifetime decision?

Comments

[melintur.livejournal.com]

I would think it is freedom to be who/whatever you want to be?

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

In theory, I agree with this. In practice? I don't know that the 15-16-17 year olds I know who are taking testosterone have had enough life experience to know that they want to be male forever. Nor has there been enough study of long-term testosterone use for me to be comfortable saying "sure, put that in my body!". But I wouldn't take the smallpox vaccination, either, so there you are. Also in practice, I don't know how much of it is "this is who I was meant to be" and how much is "wow, my life sucks, maybe if I make myself a boy/become bi and date a boy life will be better!" And yeah, I know how horrible that makes me sound. I'm sorry.

[melintur.livejournal.com]

I think they have a right to make that mistake.

I don't think it makes you sound horrible.

I don't agree with you though. ;)

[tikimama.livejournal.com]

It's probably not "wrong" in a blanket way, but rather, not right for them.

Though I do agree with the whole gender transistion thing, but I'm just scared of surgery and making a decision that is so permanent. I mean, it's not like drag, you can't take it off. It's gone, changed, forever. Which, for some, might be a great feeling of rightness/relief, etc. But what if it isn't?

Can you still be a butch dyke and date guys?

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

Umm...that question could be debated for years.

[tikimama.livejournal.com]

Well, I have the afternoon free. :)

I think it really boils down to whether one thinks being a lesbian/whatever has more to do with a culture, or more to do with specific behavior. d2leddy and I have this ongoing discussion about whether one can be part of 'gay culture' without engaging in 'gay behavior.' (Specifically, can I, a woman who doesn't (or hasn't) have sex with another woman, be part of gay culture?) Obviously, there aren't really any hard and fast rules for defining one's self, I mean, there isn't a Office Of Homosexual Affairs that one has to register with. I'm just always interested in hearing people's thoughts on definitions.

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

mmmm...Executive Director of the Office of Homosexual Affairs...no, too much Drama, I would hate the job. Also, OoHA sounds like people are fucking on their desks at work.

Topic? Oh, yeah, I think you can be part of gay culture w/o being gay. The Fag Hag (I apologize if you hate the term, but I is one so I use it) is an integral part of gay history!

[crowyhead.livejournal.com]

*cough*
*cough*

*grins*

Ok, I'm not *that* butch. But I'm definitely "read" as a dyke on a daily basis. And it totally confuses people that I date a boy.

For my part, I get frustrated with gatekeeping; I've had people tell me I shouldn't call myself a dyke, since I'm dating a guy. But I *feel* like a dyke, I look like a dyke, I get most of the negative repercussions of looking like a dyke (even when I'm with Dave, people tend not to read us as being "together"). I think it's important to realize that just because someone is dating a man, doesn't mean that they are abandoning their political committments or their dyke sensibility.

I think, too, there's a contiuum between butch and trans that gets ignored. A lot of people who might've been considered butch lesbians in the past are chosing to ID as genderqueer dykes, or "boidykes," or "boydykes," or host of other permutations. And also, I know a lot of transguys who don't ID as "male" but as "trans," and still have very strong emotional ties to their past butch identity.

I could wibble on for much, much longer, but I think I'll just stop here.. :)

[stronae.livejournal.com]

Another person I used to know, a lesbian, is now a boy (transitioning).

I can see this to be a decent course of action in cases where the person suffers from gender dysphoria. Other than that, it's a decision to be made with extreme caution, of course.

What the hell is wrong with being a dyke?

Are they snubbing lesbians in general, or are they simply making personal choices? And, lastly, a purely clinical question: are you reacting out of some sort of fear that there will be less lesbians running around? I don't claim to have any insight or anything; I'm just wondering for your own mental health.

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

Heh - thanks for the concern about my mental health. I've been happily "married" to a very butch girl for nearly 13 years now, so it's not an issue of "dude, where's my dating pool!", but an actual concern. Not with people who are experiencing gender dysphoria, my concern is that transitioning is "cool". Many a young butch girl is going to be filling her body with testosterone because she thinks it will make her life easier, or because she believes it's what dykes do, not because she's had the experience to decide that she should be male.

Perhaps I'm just showing my age, as I rolled my eyes at many women who came out in the '70s and tried to explain to me why it was so critical that woman be spelled wombyn or wemoon.

[stronae.livejournal.com]

...so it's not an issue of "dude, where's my dating pool!", but an actual concern.

Oh! I wasn't even going in the dating pool direction, though it makes sense to suppose so; I was thinking more in terms of an afraid-to-be-the-only-one-this-way direction. Fear of isolation and all that. But it seems you're not going through that, either, which is a good thing.

...my concern is that transitioning is "cool".

Yeah. That is a problem. If someone's willing to do something that they might later regret because it's "cool", well, so long as they provide a path to get 'back', they'll be the wiser for the experience without too much harm. Like smoking, only more drastic.

Perhaps I'm just showing my age, as I rolled my eyes at many women who came out in the '70s and tried to explain to me why it was so critical that woman be spelled wombyn or wemoon.

Y'know, I still love my first girlfriend to pieces after all these years, but I still roll my eyes every time she mentions this one.

[crowyhead.livejournal.com]

Not with people who are experiencing gender dysphoria, my concern is that transitioning is "cool". Many a young butch girl is going to be filling her body with testosterone because she thinks it will make her life easier, or because she believes it's what dykes do, not because she's had the experience to decide that she should be male.

I think it's a valid concern; I don't think it's as prevalent (or going to be as prevalent) as one might think. I know a lot of genderqueer kids at various stages of transitioning (or wondering about transitioning), and there does tend to be a lot of focus on the holy grail of going on T and getting "top sugery." But there is also a growing emphasis on the idea that one can be transgendered and not "go all the way" in terms of irreversible surgery or hormonal treatments; a lot of people are protesting the notion that the only real transfolk are those who have actually had surgery.

I'm sort of freaked out by people who get T illegally and start taking it without preliminary counseling and stuff. I'm sort of torn on all the standards that have to be met; on the one hand, I sort of feel like if someone's of age and truly believes that they want to transition, they should be able to. But on the other hand, it *is* a huge decision, and not one to be entered into lightly.

[sage-and-sea.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of freaked out by people who get T illegally and start taking it without preliminary counseling and stuff.

I may not have been very clear yesterday...this is my biggest worry. My recollection of people transitioning, in the 80s mostly, was that a huge committment was required before hormones were made available. You had to live a certain period of time as your chosen gender - usually two years, I believe - and attend counseling. I don't know many MtFs so I don't know if estrogen is as available as testosterone, but I know that T is really easy to get over the counter and that is what worries me.

[crowyhead.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm not sure about the over-the-counter thing, since I'd heard that T and a lot of the androgens and such are regulated fairly heavily, because athletes will sometimes take them (illegally) to enhance performance... of course, this just means that there's definitely black market sources for these things.

I think there really needs to be more information about the health risks of chosing to go "under the table" so to speak -- I worry about long term effects of non-monitored T use, not to mention clean needles... And the other thing is, the effects of estrogen are much more easily reversed than the effects of testosterone. There's started to be more informational campaigns geared towards MtFs about the dangers of unregulated silicone injection and stuff like that, but I don't see as much geared towards FtMs. Most of the guidance a lot of young transguys are getting is from guys who've already transitioned, which is great on the one hand (mentoring can be *so* important) but it's sad that there's such a gap.

Er, sorry if I'm sounding like a big huge know-it-all; I spend a lot of time in trans and genderqueer online communities, and I've also been reading about it obsessively, due to my own ambiguity...

[taoskye.livejournal.com]

I get the wanting to change your gender thing. Granted, it took me a while to actually understand it mostly from lack of exposure. I don't understand jumping the gun on changing your gender. To me it seems like something you would need to think about for some time. It looks like a long, arduous, physically taxing, emotional roller coaster that messes with not only your self image but your relationships in every facet of your life. For a long time there were constraints in place to make people take the time to be certain about the decision. Unfortunately, those restrictions seem to be a thing of the past.

I have met people that decided to begin transition after 1 counseling appointment. In another case a dear friend of mine (that I actually dated once upon a time) went to her physician to begin transition (without a single counseling appointment) and was turned down. Her (his now) solution to this was to cross the border into mexico and buy the hormones in mexico and begin administration of them without the supervision of a physician because they were going to make her wait some amount of time she found unacceptable.

I agree that people of voting age should have the option to make these mistakes. I guess I just wish that there were more facts available to these people about the ramifications of their actions on their bodies and emotions. If knowing these things they still made the decision then so be it. I just find it regrettable that many people are making these decisions without the benefit of this information. A small (shitty) less reasonable part of me wonders how many people make the decision to transition based on the idea that being a guy is easier. That same shitty part of me wants to ask them what the hell they would have done born a butch dyke in the 50's.